Trauma and Connection: Interview with Bree Gordon, The Mindful Mentor

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Welcome to the SYNC Your Life Podcast. I’m your host, Jenny Swisher, certified personal trainer, nutritionist hormone health expert and girl mom. I believe all women should be able to understand how our bodies are designed to feel. And I teach you how to sync your lifestyle to your cycle to reach maximum energy. You deserve to feel your best and this podcast is going to teach you how. Let’s dive in!

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This podcast is sponsored by the SYNC Digital Course, to take the free hormone imbalance quiz to see what your symptoms could mean about your health. Visit sync.jennyswisher.com That’s sync s y n c dot Jenny swisher.com.

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Welcome everyone to this episode of SYNC Your Life Podcast. I’m so excited to have one of my new friends Bree Gordon, here she is a speaker and a podcaster. She’s really got such a plethora of knowledge as it pertains to trauma and connection and just relationships in general. And so we as women need more of that we need to be really learning on how to really maximize our relationships. Because as I heard of a really famous person say recently, your life is about your relationships, right? Like if you take away the relationships in your life, what do you have left? Really, right. So it’s all about keeping your health a priority and maximizing the potential of your relationship. So Bree is going to talk to us a little bit about that we’re going to dive into some awesome questions today. I’m going to give you a little background on her first before I get her started. She is an experienced speaker on trauma and connection. She’s worked with dozens of universities, nonprofit organizations and for profit businesses from around the US, including the University of Miami, the Alzheimer’s Association and the Stoneman Douglas community in Parkland, Florida. She’s been featured in multiple national media platforms, including NPR, Broadway World, and very well, with a degree and board certification and music therapy and 13 years experience working in medical and community settings. She is highly respected for her clinical work, as well as her success in creating jobs in the field of creative art therapy. She hosts a weekly podcast called The Mindful Mentor, I’m a huge fan, you guys need to check that out, focused on building a culture of self awareness and empathy. So Bree, welcome to the show.

2:27
Hey, Jenny, thank you so much for having me, I really appreciate it.

2:31
So we got to do a little bit of a swap I got, I got to be interviewed for Bree’s podcast a couple weeks ago. And now here she is on on hours. So I’m so grateful that you’re here. And I’m so glad that our paths have crossed, because I just think it’s so cool when women can come together and empower other women. And I know that you are a new mom. Right? And so we’ve kind of bonded over that. We were just joking before, before the call started about how she had to run into her baby’s room, in the middle of a nap to grab her charger. And we’ve all been there. We’ve all been

3:01
third guest in the background. You know why?

3:04
Absolutely. That’s so funny. I mean, we both were just like, yes, we’ve been there. And that has to happen sometimes. That’s what happens when you’re working mom, and you’re working from home, you know, things like that happen. So awesome. So there’s so many things that I want to touch on today with Bree. And so we’re going to kind of let the conversation flow where it flows. The first thing that I really want to dive into is obviously she has experience and background in trauma, and trauma informed care. And so what I’d really like to do is just start off, because I know there are going to be women listening, who probably hear that word and they think, you know, trauma is not something that I’ve necessarily experienced, or they associate trauma with something really tragic. And so what I’d like to do is just ask you, is trauma tragic? Or how would you define trauma? As far as the average woman listening, you know, how would you what could that look like?

3:53
Absolutely. And you know what, I think less and less we are hearing that word and getting the the sticker shock from it and thinking no way that could possibly apply to me. And part of that is coming out of this increased sense of self awareness. But also part of that is really sad that now we have all entered over the last few years specifically into a space where we can relate to this idea of feeling trauma or traumatized by something. So to me personally, you know, stepping away from the the Merriam Webster definition of things, I don’t have one definition for trauma because as one of my former guests and become a friend through this internet connection that we’ve all enjoyed over the last few years. Trauma Queen Christy, she’s an awesome social media account to follow. She came on my program and she said trauma is relational right? She gave this analogy of being in a car accident and maybe one car is totaled and someone is really hurt. And the other one just the bumper fell off and they walked away fine. That doesn’t mean even though they had two completely different experiences and two different degrees of physical trauma But that doesn’t mean that they both don’t have a sense of trauma from that accident that one is more valid than the other or that one is more real than the other. So I think the first thing to know about trauma, and being trauma informed as someone who might be in relationship with someone with trauma, or working with those who have experienced trauma is that, that what’s real is real for a person, right? It might not be something that if we experienced it, we had the same reaction to it. We feel activated by something in the future, that brings us back to that moment. So we’re all kind of on this spectrum of trauma, little T and big T is one way that people often describe it. But I think to qualify it for ourselves. And for others, it’s really hard to do so because we’ve all had our own unique experiences, our own unique journeys. And I think in the same way, our traumas are unique.

5:54
Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. I think, you know, I think back on, if we would have started this by saying, you know, Jenny, you know, what trauma? Have you experienced? I think my first reaction would have been like, I’ve been fortunate to not have any trauma, right? I haven’t, I haven’t had that car accident or, or anything like that. But then when I really think like listening to you define big T, little t it makes me think like, No, I, I think I have had some moments in my life, certainly when my dad was diagnosed with cancer, and my family’s life completely shifted. And I had to sort of grow up fast, right like that, that was probably a source of some trauma, childhood trauma for me, absolutely. And, you know, so now my wheels are spinning as far as like, okay, like, and I really think that these even just the little T traumas shaped us, you know, they really shaped us. And one thing that comes to my mind, as you’re talking is, I just had a phone call yesterday with a friend who just had her first baby. The baby’s like two months old now. And she was telling me that she really has not even been able to come to a place where she could share her birth story, because the birth story was so traumatic. So she, I mean, she got really emotional on the phone. And it was just the two of us talking. And it just makes me think like to kind of coined the phrase that I think Michael Phelps brought up at the Olympics last year, right? Like, it’s okay to not be okay. And regardless of whether you’re cruising through it, or maybe, in listening to this, you’re thinking, gosh, maybe there are some moments in my life that have shaped me that have been a little bit more traumatic than I thought, right? Like, that all plays a role in who we are, and what makes us you know, confident, what makes us I guess, courageous in certain moments. So what I want to hear from you then is like, assuming now that most women have experienced some level of trauma, whether it’s big T, or little t, or both. What does healing look like?

7:43
Whoo. So you talked about in the beginning, right, the importance of relationships that we’re in. And I know, I am not the first person to say this. In fact, I was just listening to a podcast this morning, with Lewis Howes on school greatness, which we’ve talked about before being fans of that program. And I feel like this comes up in almost every interview, he has as well, that the most important relationship that we have is with ourselves, and knowing ourselves and I and again, I know so much of what you talk about in terms of health, and hormones, and all these intimate details, we need to be invested in knowing about ourselves. So that’s the only place healing can start from right. And I have such an intimate relationship with this both personally and professionally. And one of the examples that I often give is that when I was starting my work with the Stoneman Douglas community, so I worked as a trauma informed music therapist for that community, beginning in June, after the shooting, which coming up on the fourth anniversary, actually, of the Stoneman Douglas shooting in February 14. And so we began a summer camp with the survivors in the community in June of that year, so there was no PTSD at this point, right. It was just trauma, like it was just actively in trauma, this community was was just sorting through the aftermath at this point. And so, you know, we started this series of six week camp. And then the following year, we did another six week camp and dealing with a whole other host of things that would come up after a year anniversary and all of this. So holding a lot for these kids, right. And I’ve pretty much identified that throughout my entire career. I’ve been working with trauma survivors, whether it’s with World War Two vets that saw active duty, you know, Vietnam vets Korea war Holocaust survivors have worked with with dozens of Holocaust survivors here in South Florida. I work in addiction with survivors of childhood trauma. So I really started to see through working with these students, survivors of gun violence, that this is something that has marked my career that something that does connect us no matter your age, your background, your cultural, your language, your circumstances. Having a traumatic experience, unfortunately, does connect us So, fast forward kind of a few years of working in this space and being really hyper aware of what I’m holding for these individuals, what I’m taking home with me what I’m what I have space for, or what I thought I had space for, without checking in with myself. That’s the operative sentence here. And at the end of that second camp, I was so crippled over, I was walking with a cane. I remember I had a jury duty, like two days after the camp, and then I got myself from the fifth floor of the parking garage, across the street into the courthouse, live in Palm Beach County. So it’s pretty substantial courthouse right, we get kind of unfortunately, pretty some infamous cases here.

10:42
I got myself there, and I’m completely crippled over on a cane. Now, just I know, this might not be visual representation for everyone, but I’m 35 and this was a couple years ago, so pretty unusual. And the person just kind of took one look at me and was like, you know, kudos forgetting here, but you can go home, I’ll give you a pass. Like, you look like you’re struggling way too much to sit here for six hours to hear your name called, which I really appreciate that person. So I you know, I went back home and started to think what is too sensitive for massage. don’t really feel comfortable a chiropractor. So you know, made an appointment with a physician who said, Have you you know, ordered MRIs, all baths? Have you been in a car accident? Oh, I just let a trauma camp, gun violence survivors school shooting survivors for six weeks, and held all of that. And that had manifested itself. I had three herniated discs in my back. Spinal stenosis. I was prescribed several months of PT which which worked wonders. And I was no longer you know, needing to wear a brace or cane or any of that stuff. But my gosh, I’m thinking I have been in this field for how many years I’ve been through how many rounds of therapy for myself, since you know, I was in college, I had dealt with all this stuff. What could this possibly have brought up knew that was so significant, it rocked me to the point I couldn’t get off the couch, right. And so I just bring up that whole story to say like, I’m not coming to you, as someone who’s like, I am healed. Hi, my name is Bree. I’m aware of all these things. And I have arrived at the Echelon here, right? It is a constant relationship with yourself a constant checking in with yourself, and hopefully checking with yourself before you get to the point where you are literally disabled by what is going on with your emotions. Because I think we all know by now, right? Our body is holistic. If something is affecting us emotionally, socially, mentally, behaviorally, it is going to manifest itself in your body eventually. So recognizing I think healing comes from recognizing those early signs. For me, that is totally like brain fog, or you know, that feeling of restlessness, a little bit of anxiety, anxiety, feeling, not being able to focus on stuff, being forgetful word, finding things. So once I can become also all of that associated with like pregnancy and being a new mom, like, Am I in trauma? Or am I just exhausted, you know, and working through that level of knowledge of yourself as well. But really almost like writing it down? Or have something like a checklist for yourself, like, how am I doing today? And do I need to check in with anything, checking in with something looks like going outside and getting grounded and getting your feet in the grass, feeling the sun on your skin, you know, working out, you know, doing your favorite workout program, calling a friend sitting with a book, listening to your favorite music. Obviously, as a music therapist, I’m a big fan of that one. And it is also going to therapy that is not like oh, I’m in total panic mode, I need to save my marriage. I’m already down this road struggling with postpartum depression. Those are real, real things. And I certainly advise someone going through that to get help as well. But a therapist can really be best utilized to walk through that journey with you before you get to that point where you’re really in crisis mode.

14:09
Yeah, you just led the conversation exactly where I wanted to go, which I have two things on my mind. And I’ll start with with where you just left off, which is therapy, right, like normalizing therapy, I think is so so needed. So how does somebody get started with you know, finding a therapist, like finding the right type under there that there are different types of therapies out there? Like what is your I would also love to hear about music therapy, honestly, because that’s not something that I’m really versed in. So I’d love for you to touch on both,

14:36
For sure. So just start with your traditional talk therapy as that’s probably more recognizable to most, not always the most comfortable, right? Which is why the creative arts therapies are such an attractive option sometimes because that focus is off having to kind of sit and talk through your problems and more to kind of create process and express. But just start with traditional talk therapy. You bring up a really good point that sometimes it’s really hard To find that person, so I really want to encourage anyone who’s listening who’s like, I’ve tried it, it was terrible. Like it didn’t work, I did not feel a connection with my therapist. I didn’t agree with their advice, or I felt like I was just talking the whole time. And nobody helped me with anything, that those styles that don’t work for you may work for someone else. But that’s not how every therapist operates. So I do encourage people to try on a few therapists like, like you would test drive a car, quite honestly. And I think any good therapist would understand that that it’s really true good work is going to come out of a strong relationship, it’s not going to come from one session. So Psychology Today is a great place to start. You can type in your specifics, whether it’s related to, you know, grief, and bereavement, or you want someone who’s trauma informed, which basically just means they practice through a lens of being aware of someone’s trauma, knowing that certain words, or memories, or smells or anything like that can activate a trauma, and a sensitive to that response. And in in the treatment, which is so important. Whether it’s related to relationships, you know, divorce widow or anything like that, you can type in those specific things, and be guided in the right direction. I know there’s also filters on there for anyone who’s struggling with gender or sexual identity, you know, LGBTQ. So find that person going in the door that you know, specializes in the unique needs that you have, which I think is really cool. There’s even a platform for that, because that’s fairly new, right in the last 15-20 years that we can check out our therapists to that level online. It wasn’t like that many years ago. And I think that stops so many people from walking in that front door and not knowing truly what to expect from the other person. Music therapy is just a great blessing in my life, honestly, that I I’ve kind of found in high school, which most people don’t really know about, we’re kind of the best kept secret in healthcare, which is unfortunate. You never want to be the best kept secret of anything. So I really appreciate the opportunity to be asked to share with your audience what music therapy or the creative arts therapies are. It’s a creative arts therapies entail music, art, drama, and dance therapy. There’s also expressive arts therapies as well. And basically, like I said, this takes the focus off having to sit down and talk through your feelings. Instead, you were invited with the therapists to create, to use the arts as a means of expression, and then to process through that. So I work specifically in oncology, both at chair side or bedside, as individuals are receiving their infusion, their chemotherapy treatments, I also do support groups as well. I work with adults with neurodegenerative disorders. So those who are diagnosed with Alzheimer’s, dementia, Parkinson’s, ALS, stroke survivors. And as I mentioned, I also work with trauma survivors in addiction survivors of childhood trauma, or those who experienced complicated grief. And then unfortunately, I have now kind of carved out a place in my career where I’m working with gun violence survivors, not only those who survived the school shooting, but the kids that unfortunately, this is a fear for them every time they are walking to or from school in their own community. So what is kind of, it’s hard to say what this looks like, from day to day, as you can tell, I kind of work with a wide range of individuals. But there is a lot of active music making. So even if you’re not a musician, that might look like learning an instrument to build up a sense of self worth or confidence, that might look like kind of drumming together and improvising together to explore your own unique voice while being a part of a community of sound songwriting together to express your feelings in a way that can be represented in sound. And rather than just spoken word, if that’s not very comfortable. And also working together as a collaborative group to again, have your voice be heard. And it also echoed back to you and someone say, I feel that way, too, right. In fact, one of the first songs our kids wrote in the Stoneman Douglas community was exactly on that theme that you mentioned. It’s okay not to be okay. Right. And, and just kind of become an anthem for that message. We do some music listening sometimes passive music listening to hear our voice our feelings, our experience heard and other artists creating playlists to kind of give us something that we talked about in the session but that can live outside of the session as well. They can return to to connect with a maybe it’s an intention or an affirmation for the day. Yeah, lots of different everything kind of a new creative adventure.

19:52
Well, first of all, for anybody, you know, listening to this, we are video recording. And so I know I realize that you’re not gonna see our video recording but when Bree and music therapy, just now to answer the question her entire face lit up. And so I wish you guys could have seen that, but just the total glow was was there. And it’s funny, because maybe it’s coincidence, maybe not. But my husband and I are big fans of we’ve been watching the newest season of Queer Eye, I’m not sure if you’ve seen the new season yet, but there is the episode that we just saw was a lady who is I don’t know what I don’t know, the official term, but it was some sort of animal therapy. So she has, she has horses and and you wait, I wept through I was literally like, so emotional through that whole thing. Because first of all, she had the same type of reaction about animal therapy that you just did about music therapy, because both of you guys have seen people, you know, probably just light up through those through those different methods. And so I just, it’s so funny, because that space that you just gave me was like the same experience that I just had watching the lady. On the episode, she specifically worked with children that were dealing with autism and other things and how just simply touching a horse and being next to a horse or an animal of some kind was just so soothing to them. Yep. So this, this definitely has power, you’ve covered so much, I want to make sure that we kind of, I want to rewind just a little bit. So a couple of things that you said, when you were sharing your story specifically about the gun violence and how you were sort of holding on to the phrase that you used was I held all that I held all of that. So in other words, and then you mentioned a little bit later about how stress and trauma can really manifest in the body, right. And so as a personal trainer that caught my attention, because one thing that I’ve really just had to learn about myself, too, is where in my body do I carry stress? Yeah, and that’s something that I just wanted to, to kind of call attention to really quick because, you know, when I was first starting my yoga journey, several years ago, the yoga instructor who I’ve had on the podcast, my friend, Jen, she’s on a previous episode, she would talk to us each time we would start a yoga class, she would say, you know, before we would set our intention for the day, she would say, okay, like, what, where do we need to work, right? And some people would say, my shoulders, and some people would say, my hips, and some people would say, my glutes or my legs, right? And so everybody carries their stress in most likely, like, usually, for me, it’s my shoulders, right? Like, for everyone, it’s different. But everybody carries their stress in certain places of the body. And how do you find out where that is for you? Well, if you don’t know, starting movements, like starting a daily practice of exercise can really show you where you’re achy, right, like when you wake up in the morning, and you’re like, Oh, my back, right, most likely, you’re carrying it in your back. If you do a yoga session, and you feel like oh my gosh, I’m so not flexible in my hips, like most likely your hips are carrying a lot of your tension. So it is so important to call that out. Because just like I’m sure, you know that you’ve been talking about music therapy, and we just mentioned animal therapy. For me, I get a lot of my therapy through movement, right, like getting my body to move in a way that is distracting to me from other stresses. And that really gets into those places into those really tight places. The body is so so crucial. So I just I love that you. You talked about stress manifesting in the body. And I just wanted to call special attention to that. So let’s say that, you know, like I mentioned, I just had the phone call yesterday with my friend who was sort of dealing with a recent childbirth trauma. And my question to you is, you know, you said earlier that trauma connects us, unfortunately, right? What is it that we can say to someone like, for me, personally, I’ve not had the same exact trauma as my friend. But I have, obviously we’ve discussed we’ve had each of us have had different traumas. How do we how do we act around somebody? Or what do we say to somebody who is going through trauma? What is the best thing to say? Or is do we say nothing? Is it more of our action? What is the best thing to do?

23:55
I’m so glad you asked this question. Another topic that tends to come up a lot when I talk to people, and it’s not even something that we discuss ahead of time, is this idea of how we’re so impacted by grief. Right? I think that’s something that everyone is experienced on some level that we don’t automatically think of, I’m traumatized by this loss. And so, for me, when you ask the question that you just asked, what what do we say, you know, to be there for someone? Well, I think back to when I was a kid, and when I was seven, my dad passed away and it was very, you know, sudden and actually we lived in two different countries at the time so I hadn’t even seen him for a few months. So it I mean, the whole concept of a parent loss, not even having been around that person just getting a phone call. It rocked it would rock anyone’s world, but and then I’m really on the cusp of this like magical thinking when you’re seven years old, right? So I’m on this cusp of like, okay, so you know is so they’re in heaven, but what does that mean? And is this real? Or is there’s so much to sort out at that age processing loss like that. So I’m already feeling that space. And this was summer before I, you know, school started in September. And I’ll never forget, unfortunately, and honestly, I don’t blame people, they didn’t know what to do. Everyone just acted like it never happened. I think I might teach, you’re greeted me with like a hug my first day of school back. But then no teachers, no friends, no friends, parents, nobody ever brought it up to me again. And I really don’t even know if I talked about it until like college. It was just like, that’s uncomfortable. We don’t want to bring that up. I think that the thing we tell ourselves is, I don’t want to make that person uncomfortable. So I’m not going to talk about it. Well, really, it makes us uncomfortable to talk about it, right. And so honestly, as an adult, I’ve had to sort through that I’ve had to sort through that feeling of being a child and having your right reality denied by everyone around you. And it feels like you’re, you know, maybe losing your mind a little bit like, Well, does this person exist? No one’s talking about this person, am I the only person that remembers that this happened, and it’s really isolating, it’s really difficult. And so you know, thankfully, I as I got older, I had a lot of resources. And I was really encouraged by my mom to, to sort this out in therapy. And thank God for music, because getting connected to choirs and musicals and opportunities to be on stage and being community with people has changed my life completely, obviously, as an adult, but certainly as a child as well. So taking that experience now, and I’ve I’ve gone back to work and volunteer at a couple of children’s bereavement camps. And I see in these kids, you know, resources I wish had existed for me in my small town when I was going through it. And just to sit and listen, goes back to that holding space, you’ll have to be a therapist hold space for someone, right? Your job is not to have the answer, you’re not going to be able to solve this problem for this person. Because solving the problem would be to bring this person back and you you cannot, you know, or and I’m just speaking to grief specifically, but for any trauma, you know, to to stop that car accident to stop that physical attacks, sexual abuse, whatever happened, that is trauma, the bullying, whatever happened to this person that they identify as traumatizing in their life, you can’t solve it. And as a recovering codependent person, that was a big lesson for me to learn you, you cannot solve it for this person, you’re going to drive yourself and the other person crazy, the more you try, just to sit with them. Honestly, people just want to be seen, be heard, have their story heard, have it be validated. We had a staff meeting at if for my Creative Arts Therapy practice this week, and one of our therapists shared this Brene Brown quote that I’m going to mess up. But the essence of it was, what an honor it is to hear your story. Not it’s my job to do something to get it out and to solve it and to figure it out. It’s just an honor to be that person that gets to hear the trauma story. If someone shares that with you, if someone trusts you enough is brave enough to enter into that with you. Please do consider that an honor. And just sit and be with it.

28:37
Yeah, that’s exactly what I was thinking. I can’t remember where I heard it. It might have been a Lewis Howes podcast, since we we both love that one. That’s something I listened to often. And I think he was interviewing a therapist several episodes ago. But he he asked the same question of like, what do you what do you do for somebody right in that moment, where you clearly empathize with them, but you, you know, and I think you’re totally right. I think a lot of times, our lack of saying something, or our lack of even doing something, whether it’s bringing a meal or whatever, it it makes us feel awkward because we don’t know exactly what to say or do and so that we just don’t do anything at all. And I think that’s the worst response, right? Like, that’s what you were just saying, but I remember the person answering his question the same way and saying that the whole idea is to hold space for them, and is literally just tell them that I don’t have the words right now. I don’t know exactly what you’re going through. I don’t know what I can say to make you feel better. But I just want you to know that I’m here to hold space for you. And I’m here to sit with you. And that’s enough, you know So

29:39
Conversely to if you are someone who is struggling with something and you want someone to talk to, you know, I had a friend last week who was going through a challenging time send me a text message like I have some things I want to talk through. Do you have the capacity for this right now? You know, do you have the time the space for this right now? If not, let’s find another time. Wow, what a beautiful way to initiate that connection. You know, she knows, she knows that it’s night time. And I’ve got a little one there. And I’m coming back from one responsibility or whatever. And not only did I appreciate the text, because she was making sure I knew it was important what she had to share. She wanted me to be able to listen. But then I intentionally set aside the quiet time to listen to her rather than just picking up a phone, while the TV’s on my emails go in the babies go in and say, Yeah, I’m here for you. I’m totally listening. By setting that situation up for success. From the beginning of it, I just thought was such a beautiful way to enter into a really delicate conversation.

30:42
Yeah. Yeah, I love that. So I want to make sure that we have enough time to touch on relationships, right? And there’s obviously we might just have to agree on for another, you know, part two, part three, part four, because I’ve made some notes. And I’ve only touched on number one out of six items. So at this point, you know, but I do want to make sure we touch on it, because I think maybe we’ll start with this more general question and kind of go from there. But, you know, I really think that, like we said at the very beginning, you know, maximizing your relationships, that sometimes means dismissing relationships, right, like, that sometimes means enhancing relationships. So my my question that is sort of our starting point here is, how can we really make the relationships in our life? That means something to us? How can we bring intentionality to those relationships? What does that look like?

31:36
To me, everything honestly goes back to the exact same point, which is just being aware of your body. And I, I really, really like it, I’m going to integrate this into my life is what you said is the best way to know that is to get up and start moving and feeling your body. And, to your point earlier, that’s where a creative arts therapist would come in a dance movement therapist, that can help you find not only that place for your feeling tension, but also help you process through that, why you might be feeling what you’re feeling. But that’s such a great way you don’t need a therapist to wake up in the morning and to do yoga and to move and to and to be in your body be grounded in your body and truly feel that. So again, once you become aware of how you’re feeling, you know, when I see that person text me or call me, I’m feeling it in the pit of my stomach. When this particular person asks me for the 10th Time for a favor, and yet they’ve never done a favor for me, I’m I’m feeling a headache, I’m feeling tension about it. Or when this particular calls, texts me, I don’t care what I will drop anything to pick it up, because they are sunshine in my life. And they are always there for me. And so if I can be there for them, that’s a great thing, or I know they’re just going to call to cheer me up. Your body will always tell you, if someone is a really good place to put your energy towards, or if it’s draining you. And you’ll feel that you know, as soon as we can separate this idea of people pleasing and codependency and, and I know codependency kind of gets overused these days. And sometimes it’s it’s not an actual diagnosis and more just a tendency for people pleasing. I think the difference is actually it’s not that you can’t pour your focus and energy and love into people. It’s that is are you? Are you getting that back for yourself as well. More, as you said earlier? Or is it draining you? Yeah, that zapping your energy is that hijacking your mind every time that person calls or texts you? Or shows up or you see them out? Are you beginning to dread running into them. That doesn’t mean because those things are happening doesn’t mean you can’t see that person anymore. You can’t talk to that person. I mean, that could be someone in your family, you can’t avoid it. Right? It just means it’s something you need to now address sit down and have a real conversation around receive some you know, therapy or or mentorship or supervision around those feelings. talk that through with a friend and get some feeling you know, get some ideas back of how to move forward with that relationship. Or to make the choice to detach with love.

34:19
Yeah, bless and release. Yeah, yeah. So So when it comes to this, like this is such a this I’m getting goosebumps about this because this is something that has, you know, I think for me has been something that you know, I’ve it took me time to become body aware. Right. And it’s it’s also taken me time to become relationship aware, right? Like what relationships are serving me what relationships bring me joy and good energy, what relationships are toxic, right? And so I’ve been in that situation that you just described, where, gosh, every time I walk into this room, where you know, this particular person is for example, I get this feeling in the pit of my stomach. Like I just I just I dread it, I my energy changes. Sometimes I really will physically get like a headache or this tension in my shoulders right? Like, again, coming back to that, where do you feel in your body? But I mean, I can think of, I’m thinking of one particular relationship where I literally just, I just I kept entering the room, like, I just I didn’t, and it all comes back to what you just said, which is awareness, right. Like, I kept entering the room. And I kept going through this cycle of stress of, and finally, I remember my husband actually said to me, why do you keep entering the room? Like, why do you why do you and I was like, I don’t? Because I guess that’s a choice, right? Like, I guess I don’t have to write like, crazy. And you’re like, literal? It is. It is. Yeah. And so one thing that I want to want to ask you is, you know, as a network marketer myself, but that’s what my business background is in. You know, it, I’ve had a lot of different mentorship type relationships with members of my team. And I’ve had, you know, obviously, friendships like I have my two girls, obviously, we’ve made friends with, you know, other parents that are the same ages as my girls. And the one thing that I’ve come up against probably from the time I was in, like, the third grade, is this struggle with female relationships. And I don’t think it’s just me, because I know I’ve been listening to some, some podcasters like Laurie Harder. For some reason the other chick is I’m blanking her name right now. But I’ve been listening to these other podcasts where these women are really pursuing relationships with other successful women, and how difficult it can be to find like minded women. So for me, for example, I’m thinking back to like, elementary school days, my very best friend growing up all through elementary school was a boy. And I looking back, I feel like it was very indicative of my personality, because I was I have always been very no drama, no drama, no, you know, cattiness, no gossip, like, that’s just kind of been my, my thing. And so it was easier to be in a relationship with a boy and I’m not trying to stereotype. But it was just like, I would rather have a friendship for a friendship where we literally just played karate, or we danced around or whatever, I didn’t want to have the drama of the female relationship. And that has carried with me I was I was in a sorority in college. I, you know, I lead a team of over 500 health coaches, like I mean, this this female relationship, dichotomy, you know, it keeps coming about. And so what I’d like to know from you is, what are some things that you see in whether it’s in your own life or just in doing what you do when it comes to female friendships? And how can we really truly connect with other women on a level that surpasses that drama and surpasses that cattiness?

37:47
Whoa, how’s it? That’s what you want me to fit in the last few seconds? Yes. Yes. Wow. You know, what I do relate definitely to what you’re sharing. But as you’re speaking, I’m talking about like, how many incredible women I truly am surrounded by that I’ve just become friends with at a young age or at some point through my life, and I’ve just held on to like these friends that I can think of the point to I’ve just had for like 1020 30 years, quite honestly. So I think first if you found that person or or those people even if it’s that one person, hold on to them, like let’s point your intentionality towards fostering that relationship, because it’s rare, and it’s special, and it’s unique. I think that honestly, if we’re really in a room with a bunch of women having this conversation, there are more women than that feel like we do, then not, but for some reason, at some time in our upbringing, the media, the pop culture, everything that we receive, that we take in, tells us that the way to succeed as to compete is to compete and compare. And obviously, we all know the quote, Comparison is the thief of joy and end to end. I don’t mean like compete you know, if if you’re an athlete, you know, we’re watching the Olympics right now, obviously, being competitive is a winning strategy for many, but it’s just tell you, I think you have a relationship with competition. are you competing with yourself yesterday? are you competing with those around you to be the best of your craft? In what way are you doing it? Are you doing it in a way that’s depleting you that’s that’s tearing others down? Or is there a way that you can compete be the best at what you are? Well, also encouraging, supporting, igniting the fires of your community? So I don’t know if it’s just you know, us as the outlier and and that it’s a preferred characteristic to be competitive or catty, or gossipy things like these, these things exist, of course, but is it a trap that we kind of get stuck into out of, you know, comfort, or it’s just what we’ve done and what we’ve known and really everything one is searching to be on the other side of that and be in community. I hope so. I think so.

40:06
Yeah. Well, yeah, I think you’re you’re specifically calling out this concept that I’ve heard so much in pop culture lately, which is imposter syndrome, right? Like, because we live on Instagram and Facebook and social media and we see the highlight reel of someone else’s life, right? Like, she seems to carry motherhood so easily look at her, she always has her makeup on, she’s always so you know, I these are the things that I see other women saying all the time. And I just recently started, I just have to call attention to this because I just started reading a book with my life coach, I do these little mastermind groups with my life coach, we started a book that is a newer book called Think Again, by Adam Grant, I’m not sure if you’ve read this book, but it’s all about unlearning. And this whole concept of not being so set in our ways, like being okay to change our mind and being okay with re addressing the facts and looking at things differently. And so he actually talks in one particular chapter about this concept of imposter syndrome and how it’s kind of split down the middle, like some people are trapped by imposter syndrome. Like they have this sort of perfectionism about them. They see other people they compare. And then it’s sort of like a set split down the middle, where another percentage of people is on the other side of that, who are letting that either fuel them, or to learn from to say, Gosh, what can I learn from her? How can I be better in my own life? Or how can I just ditch the comparison game and just be friends with this person? Right, like, at the end of the day, so it’s so interesting, I think this is something that, like I mentioned before, Laurie Harder has a book called Tribe Called Bliss. Also recommend that book because she talks specifically on how to navigate female friendships. And when I started reading the book, I was like, Is this book really about like, how to have friends as like an adult woman, but it is it is about how to have friends as an adult woman because I think you’re right, I think whether it’s society or or, you know, social media, or whatever the case is, I just think that this concept of imposter syndrome and comparison is such a toxic thing that’s just living in our world. And if we can just, I have a friend that I’m thinking of specifically, she and I, we voice message each other on Facebook every day, and usually about nothing like on my way to Trader Joe’s, blah, blah, blah, you know, and there are days where I messaged her and I’m like, Okay, here’s the deal. I’m gonna rant to you like 24 messages, like 25 voice messages, you don’t even have to listen to him. I just need to, I just need to get this off my chest, right? And she listens, or she says I’m here, right? Like she’s holding space. I think you’re right, like finding those friendships who that are like that, that you feel like, you know, I can be an open book around this person. I don’t have to be somebody that I’m not like, that is so so so clutch.

42:47
So I’m a podcaster I have an Instagram account. So like I understand the value of well, you know, beautiful content that you see. And I’m inspired by these things. But don’t underestimate Yeah, that person that you can text it to be like, Is my baby’s poop normal? Like like, you know, like that. Right? You know, I appreciate you know, the content is created that looks so lovely. But I like when you swing your phone around, you show me that the table that all your junk is hiding on when you’ve cleaned out your living room for this beautiful Instagram shoot, like that’s, that’s real, that’s humanizing. I, I appreciate the aesthetics. But I also I want to know you’re a real person too.

43:31
Yeah, so Okay, so as we wrap this up, I want to I want to ask about you Bree, the person now outside of this out maybe outside of this music therapy outside of what you do for a career, what is your day to day look like? From the time you wake up to the time you go to bed? What is your maybe routine or no routine? Like? What does it look like for you? How do you pour into yourself so that you can serve others?

43:56
Well, my routine is much more structured now that I’ve an infant, that’s for sure. You know, I have a regular wakeup time. I’ve been a business owner for a while I’ve been working in the field the entire time. So I do have a bit of a structure as far as when my sessions are, but for the most part, I can control my schedule, which is definitely a huge value to someone like me. But now we have we have a wakeup time, you know, and I’m nursing so I’ll nurse my daughter and then we’ll come downstairs and have a play time. And then we’re supposed to have a nap time that as you might be able to hear in the background that is hot. It’s like 10th generation of not going so well. But so you know I’ve kind of structured around that I typically will be in the field just about every day of the week. I have some sessions, whether that’s a virtual at home or I go into a skilled nursing facility hospital. I think those are the two are home are the primary places. I’m going to work with individuals at this time. So kind of ebbing and flowing through that during the day coordinating with my my childcare coming in. Have the house rushing home to relieve them and, and you know and be there for my baby. So there, there seems to be a lot of rushing during the day, which is why it became really important for me pretty early, like 10-12 weeks when my child was 10-12 weeks old to get established with a bedtime. So you know, would you the dinner, bath story bed, all that stuff, and then from 8 till 11 Yeah, I do, like stay up till 11 That’s, that’s for me, that’s for me and my husband, you know, to been just show sit on the patio and have dinner together. Just at least even if we’re not talking, just being together, that just feels really important. Oh, we take a walk, that’s the most important part of my entire day, at five o’clock, or both home from work would take a walk with my daughter around the neighborhood for an hour. And that is something we do not break. If we and barring any kind of strange thing that interrupts that, that time away from the TV away from our phones, just the three of us. We’ve met so many more of our neighbors like we know what basketball team is practicing at the court and you know, my husband will hop in and play ball with the kids and, and we know what soccer team and dad and kid his his shooting goals. I love that right. And that’s something we never did before having our daughter. I mean, who really didn’t even know our neighbors, we just don’t live in a community that comes out a lot and talks. So now that we are intentionally outside walking, knowing people waving, starting conversation, it’s become my new favorite part of my day.

46:35
Yeah, I love that. My husband and I two we look forward every night to I mean, I love my children, but we look forward to bedtime, because bedtime is like Okay, now we can now we can really just sit with each other be together. Right? I love that you guys are going on a walk. Like I mean, I love all that because I just think it’s so important. Because if we’re not having at least a little pocket of time each day for ourselves, like how can we be the best for other people? Right? So well, Bree, I’ve loved this interview. So we’re gonna have to do more because I did not even touch on everything that I wanted to talk to you about. But before we sign off, first of all, I just want to mention I love I’m a fan of your podcast, The Mindful Mentor. You guys can check it out. I’ll have everything linked up in the show notes. But tell us Bri where can people find you? All that good stuff?

47:18
Yeah, thanks so much. Yes, Mindful Mentor, as as everyone loves to say wherever you enjoy podcasts, you can find that Apple, Spotify, all the places. And you can follow me on Instagram at Mindful Mentor Bree Facebook, The Mindful Mentor, and you can check out our website at www.mindfulbree.com And if you want to get in touch with me asked me questions info@mindfulbree.com.

47:46
Awesome. Okay, perfect. We’ll have all that links up for people so it’s nice and easy for them. So thank you again, so much free. I’m so glad our paths have crossed. I know we’ll talk. I know we’ll talk again soon. Thanks so much.

48:07
Thanks for listening to this episode of the SYNC Your Life podcast. I hope you found value from today’s episode. If you did, please share it out to your friends or leave a review. Remember your cycles are your superpower and by aligning with them you can live your life with all the energy needs to be a mom, Wife, Daughter and friend to those you love. Until next time!